My initial reaction to how they handled it was…what the??? One anonymous call, and they bring in all these armed agents to take away hundreds of kids from their parents?

This rowdy bunch was praying and singing.

And just in the neighborhood I work in, I bet I can point out a couple dozen houses where I know parents aren’t exactly being parents. Maybe it’s the F-bombs I hear being yelled from open windows at their kids.

But good thing these 400 kids are thinking – thank God the govt. saved me from my mommy and daddy.

Cheers.

A few months ago on the Travel Channel’s, “Living With the Mek,” I saw a young teenage girl, I think 14, be sent away from her parents to another tribe in New Guinea, as per the bride price custom. The Westerners living with the tribe offered no stern words of rebuke, as they saw it culturally and naturally fitting.

Cult? They may be. But culture? In my opinion definitely.

I am not an expert on where the blurry line of religious freedom begins and ends, especially when it lapses the slightly more defined line of law, but I find myself in a very sympathetic position when it comes to these FLDS folks.

How about that Russian doomsday cult?: http://natewatson.blogspot.com/2008/04/russian-doomsday-cult.html

I heard on the news today that these children are taught that laughter is evil, they don’t know what crayons are, and they are told that the devil lives in water so they are scared to go near water. The foster families that these children are placed with are in for some eye-opening experiences and I hope they are prepared to handle the “cultural” differences.

I think that choosing not to let your kids watch t.v. is an example of living in a counter-cultural way in the U.S., but isn’t it more than just counter-cultural to teach them that laughter is evil and that swimming is not permitted because Satan lives in water. Those are lies, aren’t they? They are damaged people, probably in more ways than we realize. I don’t have a problem with them living in a commune and having, what many would call extreme ideas in raising kids, like keeping them from technology and “secular” influences. However, these children are not allowed to consider any ideas but the ideas of their religion. Their books are only religious books, their music is only classical or religious music. We do still live in America and one of the values we proudly proclaim is the freedom to think and speak freely. These children are never given that freedom. I mean, crayons aren’t allowed… come one now… how repressed and controlling does a group have to be before they are guilty of taking away someone’s American freedom that is afforded to them with our consititution?

There are so many testimonies out there from girls who escaped that lifestyle and say they were forced to marry and that they begged and pleaded for their husbands not to touch them but they were raped on their wedding night. Obviously, the mom’s aren’t doing a very good job of preparing their young daughters for the life they will be leading. If it’s legal in some areas of our nation for the girls to marry and have sexual relations as very young women, isn’t it the responsibility of the men and women, the Fathers and Mothers, running that group to make sure those girls are safe and secure, well prepared for the life they expect of them, and that the girls are willing to accept those rules?

I appreciate your example of the tribal culture in New Guinea but I don’t think it applies much here. There is a point where religious freedom crosses the line of basic, human rights in America. I think the men running the FLDS church have crossed that line and they should be held accountable. I do feel sympathetic towards the people who have been led to believe that this is right and that women and children deserve to be treated in this manner. However, that doesn’t change the fact that something has to be done about it.

BTW. I think the marriage age in Texas is 14. In 2003, when this group moved there they tried to raise it to 16.

I could be wrong, but I think that’s right.

Cheers.

Having said all of that, I agree with you that maybe this wasn’t handled the best way. And, yes, they need to find Sarah, the girl who called with the allegations. Maybe they are ‘responsible’ mothers in as far as they are caring for the physical needs of their children. But these responsible mothers are going to perpetuate the cycle of brainwashing and abuse to their children. And if that happens, those kids will never have a chance to have a free life. At what point do you intervene? It looks to me that the authorities in Texas jumped on the first chance they had.

Christa, I love you and I am so thankful that God is all about fixing our broken lives.

I’ve wanted to comment on this but my thoughts have been all muddled because, as a mother, it is hard to admit that 25 years later that if the state had intervened in the cult we were a part of (which, by the way, David Wilkerson said we were the most dangerous cult in America at that time) they would have been justified in removing the children. Not because we were marrying them off but because there can be a fine line between discipline and abuse.

Deception is slippery and not easily defined sometimes. Most of us that were in the group were absolutely convinced that the way we were conducting our lives was the will of God. There was not a person alive that could have changed my mind. God had to intervene with disaster in order for us to break free. God had to use the drastic step of allowing an 11 year old boy to die and the leadership being charged with murder in order for us to break free of the deception.

God is using the government in Texas to bring a life altering disaster to the people in that cult. We must pray for everyone involved.

You can argue about “our rights in America” all you want. The truth is God is on the throne and he’ll do whatever is necessary to rescue people from darkness.

Sandy,
Thanks for your honesty. Wow.

From what I have read about the deal, the Sheperding movement was a good thing early on? But soon the 4 or 5 main national leaders got out of hand, and then the whole thing got really abusive?

Cheers.

Beth,
Christa and Sandy are spot on about spiritual deception, and the need for rescue and restoration. I’m just not cool with the state deciding what defines “deception” or “cult.” This group it’s easy, but who knows down the road.

There are like over 1000 articles on google covering this story. Geesh!

Some explain the problems with the “Sarah” call. Contradictions between calls, and terminology that these people never use.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8941294

I’m trying to get an anaology of the state rushing into something. An anonymous phone call about an anonymous pedophile in a nursery and they shut the church down? Arrest all the nursery volunteers? I don’t know, but it is fishy.

Cheers.

Nathan,

You make very good points too, and I don’t necessarily think that the mothers and children need to be split apart – I agree that they might all be victims. They all need to be rescued.

This is an extreme case, and I don’t know if it is quite fair to compare it to the nfl star with five children from five different women. These women, children and young boys effectively have no choice about the way they live. They might say they do, but I truly don’t believe they do. Who would leave when they’ve been told their whole life that it would mean eternal damnation? Especially, when they’ve not been allowed to learn about any other world-views, and the rest of the world has been demonized?

I’m not sure if you saw the interview on Good Morning America last week with three of the mothers. It was just heartbreaking to witness how controlled and afraid that those women were. My heart goes out to them.

So, I have to apologize if I came across angrily. The whole situation makes upsets my inner feminist, and I wasn’t trying to take aim at you.

But I do agree that there certainly are some ambiguous legal issues here that need to be sorted out.

And, I do agree that they have to prove that there has been sexual abuse – but I don’t think that’s going to be difficult.

Christa

Really interesting post and comments!

I guess if I were to put myself in a 16 yr old young lady’s shoes who had been raised in such a way and somehow gotten a glimpse of the “outside world” and just how whacked her world actually was and then get the guts to make a call to report it. Only then to watch the government shut the place down and divide up the families in a dozen different ways….I guess I would be scared spitless to say anything to anyone. If the abuse reports are held to be true…her very life could be threatened if she says anything more. She’s already seen lives torn apart, what’s it going to take for her to step out and identify herself and give all the details?? She’s got to feel safe, secure and that she can trust someone with not only her own life, but the lives of hundreds of others.

I don’t know about you…but in her shoes, I’d be scared spitless and would probably never speak.

They don’t realize yet, just how messed up “their world” has been. It’s going to take time. Unfortunately, it’s not going to be fast enough for the state of Texas nor the hundreds of lives that this scenario affects.

Just as Christa, Sandy and Beth have pointed out…it’s gonna require a great deal of prayer that these people feel safe enough to talk. It’s also going to require them to realize that they were under bondage, abuse, etc….something they probably don’t see or accept yet.

I pray for everyone involved including the powers that be in the state of Texas. There are no easy answers here!

That is definitely an interesting twist in this mess! Now watch…they’ll all be returned to the compound due to a silly technicality and the abuse cycle returns!

I just pray for all those women and children involved that they will be free, if that is what they choose! Especially free from any abuse that is taking place!

You’re making my point by mentioning Jeffs. He was tried in a court, and was innocent until proven guilty. When he was actually proven guilty of those things THEN there were consequences. These people are accused to have an abusive system, and they have 416 children missing, taken away based on that bogus phone call.

I have three main objections to you point, that have to be viewed not just there in Texas, but on a wider scale.

1. This expert testified that there was no evidence of sexual or physical abuse. So what kind of abuse was he talking about? A “BELIEF SYSTEM?” Are you kidding me?! Maybe it is, but do you really want the state making the standards for what qualifies as spiritual, emotional, or psychological abuse in matters of religion or “belief systems?”

Keep in mind that the “new atheists” (about 5 or 6 well published authors) have been saying that all religion, of any kind, is a form of child abuse.

2. If the state is taking away these children based on what they determine to be “abuse” already, then this whole DNA, and have further trials deal, is a frickin charade. A joke.

Why?

Because what happens when they prove (what many experts already know), that some of these women are not married before 18? Or the ones that did not have kids before 16? What happens to their kids when proven that they obeyed the law? It doesn’t matter because this cult is raising children in an “abusive” environment. If this is true, case closed.

And the Pentecostals better watch out…they may be next. I’m not joking. How do you raise your kids not not wear certain things? Not listen to certain things? Have their hair a certain way? How “abusive”?!

My argument only sounds silly when you live under the naive presumption that we are a Christian nation. We aren’t and haven’t been for some time now.

3. The guilt of a unknown amount (possibly small or large because we don’t have a clue yet) is being legally established as the guilt of all. This is not a good precedent to set when it comes to religious groups. Not good.

Tangents off the top of my head:
- The state will not be able to stop this cult from doing what it does. They may shut it down in Texas, but it will continue. There are thousands of kids in the Co/UT/AR area of the country. I imagine these people will be drastically more reclusive and distrusting of the “gentiles” of the outside world.
- Women are taught to submit in many protestant denominations. Some more than others. (Doesn’t mean FLDS aren’t a cult, but goes to point 1)
- I have a hard time seeing polygamy as illegal given the trend towards homosexual marriage. And actually a case can easily be made for one and not the other based on OT practices from patriarchs of the faith.
- Yes, this is a crazy group, but IMHO this will be a black eye on the legal system. And it doesn’t matter what FLDS says, and there is nothing they can do to stop the govt. Which should wake up religious people who are even borderline authoritarian.
- If the DNA tests show that 80% of the kids were born from multiple fathers this actually isn’t against the law just really jacked up.
-If the tests show 80% were born to women under 16 then the state is doing the right thing.
-If the tests show a rate under 15-25% it will be very interesting to see how they handle it.
-Child cases from now on when the state should step in on a house level – What will the implications be for religious households when children call in????????? False claims? And the impact for “abusive” belief systems?

Cheers.

No, I don’t think the state should put people in prison for what they believe. (in this instance)

Jeffs was not put in prison because he believed a 14 year old girl should be forced to marry.

He was put in prison because of his actions.
As you said “imposing” his belief system.
“Forcing” might be a better word for it, since we actually had TESTIMONY from the girl in question.
Imposing or forcing is not the same as believing.

Actions can be proved.
Polygamy can be proved.
Rape can be proved.

Believing that polygamy is ethically permissible is not against the law. Is it?

If our legal system wanted to punish people based on belief systems the KKK would have been shut down long ago!!! Hate crimes are not in and of themselves a crime without an action.

Hate is not against the law anymore than a religious jacked up belief system.

Do we put in prison all the anti-semites who deny the Holocaust?

How many ways can we go down this road?

How many other groups with horrible belief systems???

Cheers.

“Impetus?” In other words, they forced someone to do something illegal? And there was evidence. And testimony. Pretty nifty how that works.

I thought that’s what you were saying – we should do something BEFORE it happens.

- How many cases in our legal system has a parent been punished for having incorrect beliefs???
- How many have been punished BEFORE they do something wrong?
- No actions proven…just beliefs? How many?

I’m genuinely curious. Maybe I’m dead wrong?

Take a guy part of a brainwashed cult that has not done anything against the law, but believes it is okay to have mutiple wives then he:

1. Should be punished?
2. Should be put in jail?
3. Should have his kids taken away if he CURRENTLY only has one wife, and has not abused them?

You are arguing at least 2 out of 3, and I couldn’t disagree more. And #3 is most troubling because odds are that is what is happening in Texas.

You do not want the state deciding what counts as “abusive” when it comes to belief systems and wholesale punishments to an ENTIRE group. Especially religious ones.

You do not want the state pre-emptively punishing people based on beliefs, that may even believe it’s ok for something illegal, even when they have not acted on those beliefs.

Okay I don’t.

It’s not how our legal system is supposed to work.

At least I didn’t think it did until there is a totally bogus phone call from some nutball in Colorado causing a raid.

And now 400+ kids who say “please” and “thank you” all the time, from the 19th century, and never watch TV are going to be living in foster homes. If you know anything about foster homes they are full of other little angels.

Bravo state!

America stands for guilty until proven innocent?

America stands for punishing people first, and then collecting the evidence? DNA? Etc?

I’ve said all along these people are jacked up, but this is not the way to do things. This is tragic, and I believe a huge mistake from our legal system.

I can walk down the neighborhood I am in right now and find households with sexually abused girls.

I can also find households right now with physically abused children.

They are at our youth group.

How many of those parents would lose their kids based on me calling the authorities, without physical evidence or testimony?

And you really want me to believe the state gives a crap about these kids?

Cheers.

(This is a nice discussion. And I know all four people reading this knows I’m not mad at you, but what I think is clear injustice.)

(This is a nice discussion. And I know all four people reading this knows I’m not mad at you, but what I think is clear injustice.)

This is a great discussion, you think we have as many as four lurkers following it? :)

“You do not want the state pre-emptively punishing people based on beliefs, that may even believe it’s ok for something illegal, even when they have not acted on those beliefs.”

I’d like to believe you have actually read my posts and links before you responded to them. For us to be this far into the conversation and you’re still holding on to the notion that the FLDS belief system concerning the forced marriages and consumation of those marraiges with minors HAS NOT BEEN ACTED ON is frivolous. As I’ve already pointed out, three of the FLDS leaders, from three different parts of the country, are in prison for child rape, among other charges. Is this not enough to demonstrate a pattern of abuse worth investigating at other sites to you? Are you comfortable accepting that the sexual practices based on this ‘belief system’ ended with the conduct of these three? After all this, should the current generation of FLDS leaders be trusted on their own in the isolation of their compounds, accountable only to themselves? Does your church require a background check to work in the nursery? I’ll bet it does. If this was only taking place between consenting adults, I wouldn’t give a rat’s behind about this story. But, all of the victims were children at the time they were abused. The state has every right to inspect these communities based on the physical proof, evidence, and testimony of the victims who have already spoken out.* While you are waiting for women to be paraded before us with black eyes, very serious abuses have already been committed. The results of the DNA tests will either allow you a big “I told you so,” or an opportunity to acknowledge the rightness of interrupting this sick belief system.

* Not to mention extensive welfare fraud. Your tax dollars at work! :)

My tax dollars at work…lol. Don’t get me started! ha!

I was going to let this one rest. I said my peace, regardless of the outcome.

These people have had their civil rights violated. The state violated their 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 14th amendment rights. Even if every single one of these crazies is guilty, they still have rights like everyone else. It’s a shame the ACLU doesn’t have the balls to do something about the cases they don’t like.

From what I understand not only the women and children were taken without warrants, but the DNA samples as well (although I only read that a couple places). I’m guessing the interviews with the women and children after said seizure was a violation of some type of self-incriminatory rights.

And what about due-process standards before the raid?

You quoted child welfare officials. These are the people we should trust after the call from Sarah right?

And 31 of 53 are pregnant or have kids right?

First, this means that there are 22 – 14 to 17 year olds not “forced” into spiritual marriages? What the heck happened to their rules with these girls, or were these just the ugly ones? Or wait you mean the testimony from some of the women that they were not married until after they were 18 might actually be true. No crap Sherlock.

Either way, will the parents of these 22 innocent and apparently not abused girls who are not married, and not pregnant or with child, be returned to their parents???
I THOUGHT NOT!

Secondly, of the 31 how many were with older men? Were the majority of them 16 to 17 year olds and of legal Texas age? Were they married? As in the Jeff’s case (and the others you mentioned), will we actually get evidence and testimony from the victims about what occurred?

Thirdly, what about the boys? You see the cult has been *accused* (Which = already guilty) of getting rid of the young teenage boys. We don’t know how many, or why? But obviously what the state has done to these boys is much better. Since these boys say (Which = lies) they love their parents and siblings, and vice versa, the state can take them from their family and siblings. Thank goodness because they were probably forced to love them in the first place, and lets have the state force them – I mean let them choose to live in a group home with the other angels of the state, and then lets force them – I mean let them choose to live with some “parents” they don’t even know.
Good call on those double standards for the sake of the innocent and those not abused.

I’m just wondering how many Catholic priests need to be pedophiles before we lock all of them up?

Don’t forget the 1953 raid I mentioned, which cost Gov Pyle his job, and then also caused the group to flourish and grow becoming the headquarters of the FLDS, due to their martyr/victim status. Who knows this also may come back to bite them in the ass.

I hope not. I hope these kids get great foster parents if they don’t get to go home. I don’t hope to find out that all the girls were abused (which you can tell I doubt until “proven guilty”), but if they were this thing was NOT done the right way. It wasn’t.
And I’ll stand by that.

Cheers.

You can have last word!!!
(Unless new news come we need to rehash! ha)

Is God bound by our constitution?

Sandy,
I agree that God is bigger than our Constitution.

I’m just not comfortable confusing the lines between state and religion. Granted, in another setting, country, or govt. system I would not be making the same arguments. I’m just doing so based on the civil rights, and a presumption of innocence, that our country does afford us right now.

For example, let’s say a guy murders another person. We can call him “OJ.” What if he is found guilty based on evidence that was planted, or found without a warrant? We could say the will of God was justice and we got the guilty verdict! Yeah! But I am not comfortable throwing away or selectively compromising rights we have in this country, even for those who are guilty.

Rights for those who are crazy, in cults, or whatever are something we should take pride in, not get rid of. These are “inalienable rights” that make us much different than some of the totalitarian govt run regimes of other countries.

There is a lot in this case to wrap your brain around! So true.

Cheers.

Oh man! Cheap shot!

Sweat shops in this country are illegal. But I don’t expect a plant to be totally shutdown based on an anonymous phone call.

Sweat shops in other countries are not illegal. It’s why corporations go there, pay someone 15 cents an hour, and our govt. gives them a tax break. lol. Perfectly legal, but totally unethical.

After almost 40 comments, you think I am ok with a right for anyone to rape, or marry, minors? huh?

I’ll let the cat out of the bag and say I think polygamy (legal age of consent) should be protected by the 1st amendment (”or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”). Yell at me! Yes, I understand it no longer is.

The 4th amendment had to do with the warrant (a phony pnone call), for searches and seizures. CPS can investigate the claims, but a total seizure and search based on calls?

The DNA testing by the judge is a violation of the 5th amendment (witness against yourself).

6th amendment for a speedy and fair trial. Yeah, find me a jury that doesn’t already think they are guilty based on the media coverage.

And now the place is locked up. They are all kicked out of their homes – If the kids are put all over the state of Texas and separated from siblings and mothers, then why haven’t any of the men been charged with rape? Polygamy? Etc???

(PS I looked it up. Until 2 years ago, the age of marriage (w/ parental consent) was 14 in TX. It is now 16.)

Cheers.

So I’m not outraged over rape? Exploitation?

Sounds like a cheap shot to me?! LOL.

You are outraged over a whole group as guilty until proven innocent, and that’s not my bag baby!

Cheers.